All Xero Developer Podcast episodes
Hosted by Nick Houldsworth and Dan Young
Bear Douglas (@beardigsit) developer advocacy lead and Paige Paquette (@paigepaquette) senior developer marketing manager from Slack join Nick and Dan on the Xero Developer Podcast this week. Check it out to hear them discuss how to attract developers, keep them and delight them.
As part of the apps and integration team, Bear and Paige cover off some of the most interesting parts of the developer strategies at Slack and how they keep working to move the needle.
The ‘consumerisation of the enterprise stack’ helps Slack grow and maintain such a loyal developer and user base. Focusing on tone of voice and a transparent style of communication has built their ecosystem into a powerhouse of over 1500 public apps in only 5 years.
So listen in as Bear and Paige share their ecosystem insights from one of the fastest growing apps ever.
NH: Welcome to the Xero Developer Podcast, my name Nick Houldsworth.
DY: And I'm Dan Young. Great to be back on the podcast talking building developer Ecosystems. Probably realized we're all about Ecosystems by now and we are joined today by two distinguished guests from Slack, Paige Paquette, developer marketing manager and Bear Douglas, head of DevRel. Probably two of the best names in SaaS in my view, but welcome to the show.
PP: Thank you, great to be here.
BD: Thank you.
NH: Now this is usually the first question we ask everybody, most people who are listening are probably familiar with Slack, but if either of you wanted to give us the two minute elevator pitch on what Slack is.
BD: Awesome. Slack is a communication hub that brings all the key information that companies need into one interface. Clearly, there's chat, there's communication, there's also a suite of integrations and APIs that people can use to plug into the tools that they use for work or they can also build something themselves.
NH: Fantastic and Paige, I remember when we switched to Slack in the former company I was in, Vend, which is a software company. At the time we were using a range of different tools, I think we had Hip Chat, Yammer, email, Instant Messenger. Then we just moved everything on to Slack. And at the time I remember thinking, it was quite remarkable how it just became so loved by the team so quickly. Clearly there were a lot of tools at that time. What do you think was special sauce for Slack? What is it that made people really want to jump on board with this communication tool for business?
BD: That's a great question. I think part of it was that there was an element of Slack that was a little delightful. Like the copy and even the loading messages. Were just fairly nice and I think kind of exemplifies the consumerization of the enterprise. This is an enterprise product that feels consumer, and feels nice to use, and little bit considerate. And the UI is very straight forward. Then I think another element is that we grew a lot very quickly with developers.
BD: And there were certain elements that were almost very developer friendly. Like you could use a slash command to type in commands. Which is basically a command line interface. Very intuitive to developers. So we were able to get a lot of growth very early with that early adopter. Technical startups, Silicon Valley crowd, and that we expanded beyond that.
NH: I definitely know as our engineering team that met with the strongest advocates from bringing Slack into the business and if the engineers want to do something, usually everybody else falls in line. I think as well, you mentioned that kind delightful interactions and I remember when one of my first experiences of SaaS which got me really into the industry was using Mailchimp and just the way that they took something as kind seemingly ordinary as email marketing and then created this beautiful interaction around the experience.
NH: Make it felt like it wasn't business software, it was consumer software and really started to change the nature of my perception of business software.
BD: Yeah I love Mailchimp.
PP: Yeah they also did a really good job of doing education around the email space, what was Can's Fan, what did it really mean? What could they tell you about delivery rates, why they were important, and how you could do a better job. And they had a really great voice and tone that made that educational content appealing even for people who weren't necessarily in marketing. I know I read that stuff as an engineer and thought, "oh wow, here's a whole world I had no idea about."
DY: Cool. So Bear, this one is directed at you. Can you tell us a little bit about your journey to working developer relations for Slack. I see you went from archeology and anthropology to Facebook to Twitter and on to Slack. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
BD: Yeah it's a kind of funny one to explain because usually when you talk about your career you don't really go all the way back to high school. But I would say that my University degrees were more of an aberration in my overall career trajectory than they were a major shift. I've been programming since I was in seventh grade and I didn't pursue it in college as a major, I kind of played around to see what else there was. There was archeology and economics and computer science and so that's what I ended up with a major in archeology and minors in the other two.
BD: And so then when I was entering the working world I was confronted with this funny schism where on the one hand you had a very esoteric, archeological research, and then the other hand I was working part-time at a start-up that was touching tens of thousands of users every single day. And that was what drew me back into software, was the appeal of working on something that was immediately relevant to people's lives every single day. And the way I got into DevRel was sort of sideways.
BD: Because I had this odd mish mashed of skills. I started off in product marketing for a deploy tool. I was working at a company called Strobe and this was back when we weren't sure whether native mobile verses the web was going to win. So we were building some frameworks to make it easier to release performance web apps. I just sort of just showed more and more that I could do more than write copy.
BD: As we were going through the release process of new products, I was working in community management as well as ghost writing a bunch of blog posts and things like that. Then segued into DevRel full-time at Facebook at a time when, it was a growing industry, but DevRel and even 2011 was only really at a lot of big companies and more and more small companies were seeing it emerge as a world that was important if your business was in platforms. But it was still a fairly small market.
BD: Now a days we can see that even in the Slack group for the DevRel collective, there are 2000 people in that Slack group. And it's kind of amazing because if you would talk to this kind of group of people, maybe even five years ago, it would have been much, much smaller. So it's been interesting and exciting to be a part of this boom in the profession overall. And I don't know how you all have experienced that in the last several years.
DY: Yeah it's interesting I guess its relatively new territory for me in the last three or four years, to be honest. And also even Xero going back when we actually started out our partner program and things. It was one person kind of doing it. But now we have sort of six or seven of us now rocking the DevRel vibe. It's interesting in Australasia right now, it's not really a thing, yet. Especially in New Zealand.
DY: So we're still kind of trying to, like when we're hiring and recruiting for developer relations roles, it's actually quite hard. You've really got to look, look hard for the people that are gonna do this really well. You almost got to take internal engineers and encourage them to get involved in community stuff and technical content creation, events. That's kind of how we've had to, how I had to do it.
DY: But actually in the states and even in the U.K., its quite prevalent these days.
NH: I love our DevRel team. I think that they're smart, techy engineers who love working with people and love seeing other startups succeed. It's such a great combination of skills and everyone on the team is really, really talented. It's great to see this kind of industry which seems to have grown over the last few years which creates opportunities for people either from a technical background who want to move into more of the relationship space or people from more of a relationship background who've got a technical bent as well.
NH: So I'm really optimistic and ... but as you said, it's a reasonably early stage industry and so finding benchmarks or understanding how other people do it is, is hard, which is why it's so great to have conversations with other companies such as yourselves.
NH: Now as Slack has grown a lot. Often we forget that you're only ... is it four years, five?
BD: Yeah just over four and a half.
NH: That's over four and a half years. It feels such a well known brand and so prevalent now. Can you share any numbers around your growth either of the business or maybe the size of your platform and kind of developers.. Paige. Bear.
BD: Our last stat of number daily active users is 8 million daily actives as of May 2018. Three million are paid daily actives. And we have over 70,000 paid teams, including 65 percent of the fortune 100, so that's a substantial growth in the last year or so. As for our platform, Paige take it away this is totally your wheelhouse.
PP: Yeah we today have over 200,000 developers that are building on Slack on a weekly basis which is pretty amazing. The majority of those are actually building internal integrations. Which are apps that are internal to a company. In contrast, external integrations would be things that you can find on our app directory. So we have a around 15 hundred apps in our directory today. And around 94 percent of teams actively apps.
PP: So we have a lot of developers, its growing, I would like to see it grow even more. Its really awesome even in just the past two years since I've been here to see the growth of the platform and also of people using the platform. It's been really awesome.
DY: Totally. We don't have quite those numbers. But uh..
NH: We always have to get the numbers out of the way in SaaS. Everyone loves to hear it.
DY: It's interesting though, the number of apps and its really hard because we've had to figure out how to scale our operations quite quickly. In the last couple of years and I think we're doing that quite well. More automation, and all that good stuff. For Slack, and maybe this one for you Bear, how do you run certification or quality control on so many apps and integrations?
BD: So we haven't really cracked into certifications just yet. But it is something that we're seeing growing demand for and interest in. As more and more people are customizing Slack. As Paige mentioned, the vast majority of the apps that we see on our platform are by individual teams for their own use. So there is this sense that yes you can install apps from the directory that will give you access to some of the biggest tools to use every single day. But when we see people building on our API a lot of it is for that next step of customization.
BD: For those, when we think about putting high quality apps in people's hands. A lot of what we're trying to do is skill developer education, so we've released a best practices guide, and then we're going to be updating that in the next six months or so. So we keep everything current so people understand some of the UX concepts that you might be less familiar with if you're not used to building software for end consumers.
BD: If you're just building for your team, you've got different end audience, they've got a different amount of context, they might need a different level of onboarding than if you're building for the store. When we're talking about people who are building for the app directory, for many of those apps, we do have partnerships in place where we help them out and do design reviews to make sure that they're using our latest and greatest and they have the guidance that they need to do that well.
BD: We also have a team that reviews all of the submissions that go into the app directory to make sure that they meet a certain quality standard when it comes to things like, does the app behave as expected when its installed? Is the first that it does just ping every single user and say, "hey by the way, somebody installed me you shouldn't interact with me." It's not a great user experience. So we do have a team that goes through and makes sure that we have really high quality apps that are making it into that app directory listing.
BD: But it's a great question about certification, that something that we'll be keeping an eye on in the coming years, because it is something that a lot of platforms as they reach a certain size in maturity do start to offer.
DY: Absolutely and one of the things that we have challenges with is when, sort of encouraging ongoing engineering if are investing over time with their partners. So as developers don't just tick off this integration and move on to the next thing. Or if they do, how do they not leave the integration to deteriorate and the uptick of new features and all those sorts of things. So how do you encourage that ongoing investment?
BD: Generally the best thing we can do is show them other people's results that they get from adopting new features. We recently released a feature that we called App Actions, which is on any given message inside Slack. You can send that message content to a third party app from a little button that's in the overflow menu on the upper right hand corner when you hover over. A long press on mobile.
BD: And that's something were we've seen substantial engagement returns because users who are not technical often don't think about slash commands as the first way to contact an app. But when you build something into the UI in a much more accessible, much more familiar place, you make it possible for more people to take advantage of that integration. So the reason that was compelling for a lot of our partners and for people who wanted to keep on building in, is that they saw substantial engagement returns on doing it. So wherever possible, we'd like to have some shiny stat that says, "hey, there's actual measurable benefit to do doing this."
DY: Absolutely and I think in general terms people will continue to engage if you're able to, working on the brand awareness or more to your deck that you built around building delight, inter-API interactions. How do you, from a Slack perspective, how do you ensure that developers find delight in interactions with Slack.
BD: I've got to give huge props to our lead of the docs writing at Slack, Taylor Singletary, he's @episod on Twitter, he's the mastermind behind the voice and tone of our docs. Which is something I think a lot of people appreciate, injecting some levity into the way everything is expressed and clarity of explanation, making concepts feel accessible, and not like this unapproachable set of things that you have to bend your mind around just to get started I think has a huge bearing on developer delight, particularly on Slack and the experience people have.
BD: We put a lot of thought into being transparent, you might have seen or not seen that we have that we have our platform roadmap completely open on Trello and we update it quarterly so that people can see where we're going, and they can understand our strategic direction and just have some reliance on consistency from us in that way. And I think that is something that has really, really paid dividends to us when it comes to feeling like we're trustworthy, is that we've made that choice to be transparent.
BD: From the delight point of view, too, we've got a lot of work that we've been doing to make the API itself much more consistent and much more intuitive as we go along. Without getting too in the weeds, there has been a big effort for increased API consistency as we release things and you'll more from us in that vein over time as well.
DY: Fantastic, I'll be completely honest with you, Bear, we actually ripped off your Trello roadmap idea, I'll be honest with you. About that, we did make mention of that on the actual Trello roadmap so we give credit where credit's due. But I totally agree being as transparent as possible with your developer community really helps whether its positive things or even things like we're experiencing some issues with the API being transparent around that stuff, people really care about it and I think that definitely builds trust with your community as well.
DY: One thing that you mentioned and your deck that I referred to before was actually failing gracefully, and handling those things really well. So yeah I totally agree.
NH: I think you touched on a point as well around the tone of voice in those delightful interactions, it reminded me of a couple of things that I noticed recently. I think I saw somebody on Twitter take a screenshot of Slack's release notes to the iOS app store, and say, "this is how you do release notes." Because there this charm in there, you're explaining complicated concepts to customers, but you're actually doing it in a way that's memorable and even actually recently I think there was a outage a Slack, quite a major outage.
NH: And most of the coverage I saw of it was actually charming. We shared it around our PR team recently and said, "this is, if you build up that trust that rapport and that tone of voice with your audience it builds up that relationship that sees you through the good times and the challenging times as well. I wonder if that's something that you guys have reflected on and it certainly seems core to the way that you guys communicate with your customers and you're developers.
PP: Yeah I would say to add to that, our CE team is really the best in the business. They're just amazing, when an incident happens which it rarely does, but when it does it's amazing to just, I have no part in this, but I just get to sit back and watch them swarming on Twitter, replying to everybody's requests one offs. It's amazing to see the tone of voice from somebody who just went from sending an angry tweet like, "why are you down, I can't get any work done." And then they'll just send us super nice, authentic, human tweet in response and then that person will suddenly turn around and be like, "thank you so much, that was a really pleasant interaction with the company, I'm not used to this."
PP: Which I think helped fuel a lot of the early delight and love for Slack. It wasn't actually marketing, it was definitely the CE team, because people would actually be able to talk to a person that sounded like a human.
NH: It's sometimes hard to quantify the value around this stuff. I guess that's like brand marketing or PR in general, but having a sense of human voice behind your language, you can definitely see the impact that it has. And developers, if you're appealing to developers have a very low threshold for corporate jargon.
NH: They can see through the BS pretty quickly. But likewise they respond very well to a clearly human voice behind things. Paige you mentioned before that the size of the community you had before and your ambitions to grow it. Beyond that, what else do you think attracts developers to Slack? And what are some of the ways you're look to grow brand awareness. I guess also thinking that the common thing in start-up is what got you here is not necessarily the things that will get you there. I wonder if you could speak to that a little?
PP: Sometimes growing developers or growing developer brand awareness, I think that we have a lot of things going for us. We have developers who like Slack, generally they're aware of the product, at least in many markets, and they generally they have a pretty positive feeling towards Slack, so we started off on a great foot, like as a marketer when I came in, it was like, "great this is the best job ever, developers want to build on us."
PP: Not a lot of convincing to be done. But as we grow into less technical industries, I think the biggest opportunity is education and enabling our customers to build apps for themselves. We call them corporate engineers colloquially sometimes, but these are people who are inside a business and they might be customizing like Salesforce and Jira and we also want them to customize Slack to connect to whatever kind of internal tools they have or external tools. Anything with an API to make Slack fit that business's needs.
PP: So that's a big focus of ours and mine, but other than that, continuing to grow the brand would look like doing more around developer love. This is a topic that Bear and I have chatted about. Just having more bandwidth to be more places, being at more conferences, hosting more events. Enabling community members to step up and be community leaders in their own hometown wherever they are.
PP: And just providing opportunities for the community to shared knowledge, and shine a positive spotlight on the knowledge they have, cause its-
BD: I was gonna say that's gonna be a big thing for us this year as well. Because while we talk about the big growth of the community, the growth of the team has been something that's been a big enabler for us as well. With four people serving your entire community of developers, its really hard to be all the places that you want to be and so now that we're a little bigger, now that the team's a little bit more built out, we're going to be able to do more and be in all the places that we want to be.
DY: Totally, its that human element I just love in getting out there an actually talking to our developers and our partners about what we're doing. Recently we went on our developer roadshow around six locations around major regions, and actually caught up with you, Bear, in Singapore, which was awesome. Thanks a lot for coming along.
BD: That was great.
DY: But yeah, just wondering how your tour at that time actually went, and maybe what your plans might be for the next 12 months around that.
BD: So in our last tour we went to Asia and we were in several cities, well APAC, more broadly. So Sydney and Melbourne, Singapore, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Taipei, and Tokyo. And when we go in region we usually base on where we see a lot of developer activity, not just in general, but specifically on the Slack platform. And we want to go meet our users where they are, understand what their needs are that might be different from what we build against based on our own experience of using Slack.
BD: It's always good to open your eyes and get unblinkered by seeing the way that other people do it. So we had about seven public events and then during the dozens meetings during the day, as you all probably know these roadshows are pretty wall to wall, where you spend the days in customer meetings, and partner meetings and then do an event the very next night. Get up in the morning and do it all again. So we're probably going to be hitting the road again to Europe in the beginning of November.
BD: We'll have some details on that soon. Again we're looking at places where we see a lot of Slack developers already to meet them. And one of the places where I'm excited that we're going to be traveling in the next few months is also to Brazil. So we're going to be at a conference at the beginning of Brazil, which I believe is hosted by I Masters. And then going into 2019, it will probably be more of the same, be looking at the right places to be in APAC and also in EMEA and hopefully doing more domestically in the U.S. as well.
BD: Which is something that we've done a bit of, and we've been opportunistic about in the past and now that there are more of us we're hoping that we can be a little more regular about where we show up. We've been at PyCon the last couple of years, we hope to be doing that again. And picking a few other conferences where you can reliably find Slack developers.
NH: So Slack is really, truly a global company, isn't it? I think even from early on, I imagine you've had a adoption in lots of markets around the world, just not the U.S. Does that reflect in your developer base as well?
BD: Yeah it's actually amplified in our developer base, its kind of interesting. Only two of the top ten cities by developer population are in the U.S. Everywhere else is India, Asia and I think Sao Paulo might be in the top 10, I haven't checked recently, but its largely not U.S. based.
NH: There's something we can relate to very strongly coming from a business which was founded in New Zealand, but is 90 percent all around the world now as well. That business is Xero just in case those who are listening had forgotten.
NH: And speaking of Australia and New Zealand in this small corner of the world, I want to use that as a segue into some news that you shared recently about partnership with Atlassian a very successful software business out of Australia. When I saw that news I think I was surprised, but also thought, "gosh that does make sense." I'd love to hear any insights you can share and perhaps what that means for your developer platform and community.
BD: Yeah we're really excited about it. The near term benefit that a lot of people who are users of Atlassian products, like Jira and Confluence are going to see inside Slack is a doubling down on making those integrations super robust. So when we launched Actions, which I talked about earlier, it's the hover over element on messages, we launched that at Spec we had a really wonderful end to end flow that we done up with Sauna where you could be talking about a task in context of conversation.
BD: Which is pretty much what you're doing in Slack all day, is talking about work tasks. And then turn those messages into comments in the Sauna or tasks inside of Sauna. And now imagine if you could keep your Wiki in confluence just as easily by sending messages there and back. So the nice thing is, we're going to be investing more deeply with those teams across Atlassian to bring those amazing experiences into Slack.
BD: And then what it means for customer developers is we're trying to help them make any leap that they need to as gracefully as possible. We've been putting together migration helper guides, so helping people understand what's different between the platforms. Any concepts that translate over. What's going to be easy and difficult about migrating integrations that they already have, so we're going to be at their developer conference Atlas Camp, in a couple of weeks in Barcelona.
BD: So, we'll be doing a session together with the Stride and Hipchat PM, we're going to be talking about some of the integrations inside the broader Atlassian dev community that we're seeing in Slack. Some of the cool choices that they've made, and some the ways they've made great user experiences. And we're also have times set aside for one on one conversations with developers.
BD: And one thing that with the unsung heroes of all of this, is Slack's dev support team. We are ready to hear from developers about what they need from us, what's confusing about our API, coming to it for the first time, I think people sometimes veer away from talking to developer support or talking to a human, but we got some excellent humans on the other end of the line so, reaching out for feedback at Slack is going to be a, hopefully, a great way for some of the people who are coming new to the community from that Atlassian community to get started, and get the questions answered.
NH: That's really exciting, what you talked about there is working collaboratively with teams to build a really great customer experience. It's something that we think about a lot in our space of the business. We need to ensure that we've got a program that scale that allows any developer anywhere to build on the API and to create to the opportunity for startups to grow with Xero. But also we want to invest time with those other businesses that are complementary to Xero and build really strong user experiences.
NH: We've recently announced a partnership in the U.S. with Gusto to provide a payroll solution now, they've got really great coverage, a great product, and a lot of joint customers already. We recently announced the acquisition of a company, Hubdoc, which has been a partner in their Ecosystem, to really accelerate the growth of data automation, and receipt capture, and bills automation. And we saw that as complementary to our platform strategy where we have multiple solutions in that category who are also providing that as well.
NH: I think the key is to really put your money where your mouth is in these partnerships and invest in that product. Get your teams together. It is a feature of your products, it is important that you treat it as such and you continue to build on it over time and understand the needs of your customers, so I really love to look forward to the work that you guys put together around that. And what it means for your customers.
BD: Thanks yeah. I couldn't agree more.
DY: Awesome. Now Slack has had a developer Ecosystem pretty much from the start and its grown to be a incredibly rich Ecosystem and I'm sure you've had some growth lessons over that time. What's one thing that you could have done differently do you think?
NH: We're coming to the close and we always put the best questions towards-
BD: It's hard to-
PP: Yeah. It's sometimes to hard to say because I think that there were valid reasons always for the decisions that we made at the time that we made them.
BD: Yeah. I have an answer to that I think was not the wrong choice at the time, and I still think that it was a good choice and instilled community that's important to us. There was some market confusion early on about what a Slack app was and could do. And if everything was a conversational bot and could you build an integration for Slack if you didn't AI provider, or you didn't have anything ambitious that you were doing in the Chat App space.
BD: And it's possible that we could have been clearer there. Some of the Chat Bot developers have been our best advocates and they were a fantastic community to be our first community. And so I wouldn't change that, but I do recognize now that there is work to be done to expand people's understanding of what a Slack app is and can do.
BD: I think that would be the only thing, but its not even a regret.
NH: And from looking backwards to looking forwards, what does success look like for you and your team in the year ahead?
BD: For me and just scoping to one year, its that more people inside larger companies and smaller companies, not only feel empowered to build apps, but they understand that apps are more than notifications. You can get work done in other services inside Slack and I want the number of people who have written an app that people on their team use besides just them to go way up.
BD: And one of the things that I'm excited about is our acquisition of a company called Missions, that essentially is going to make it possible with a WYSIWYG editor to create some of these workflow type integrations. And I think that is going to dramatically expand the number of people who can create those types of useful work flow style integrations for their team and if that number of people goes up and people are happy about what they're building, that would make me extremely happy.
NH: Great, great answer.
PP: Yeah I totally echo that there. For myself I think we're continuing to build out the developer marketing function at Slack, which I'm really excited about. So I think what's important is that we continue to ship products that make developers' lives easier. Especially around platform maturity is a big theme for us. We are taking a look at the platform and enabling more ways for developers to build apps that are useful that display dense information, that unlock enterprise distribution.
PP: These are all things that are kind of like markers of a truly enterprises, great platform. So that's a lot of our focus which I'm super excited about it. And I would echo what Bear said about Missions, I think enabling quote, unquote builders, which are people how might be non-developers but might be marketing ops or sales ops or business analysts. To create very simple but very useful workflows, which is a term that I don't love, but just like bringing work into Slack is the easiest way to put it.
PP: Getting, making it possible to do more work inside Slack very easily without planning and scoping hours or weeks or months of developer time is gonna unlock a whole new segment of people who can do this inside Slack.
DY: Awesome, that is exciting. And now we have reached the point on the podcast where we throw in a few curve balls. This is called the rapid fire question round, thing. Now either of you can answer, whoever hits the buzzer first. The virtual buzzer. So there's going to be five questions, Nick and I will ask them, and one by one, and then whoever shouts out the first answer.
DY: Question one. Fax, email, or Slack?
BD: Fax, but only for the irony. Because- I don't think I've used a fax machine in ten years.
NH: Haven't publicized it heavily? I'm just waiting for the right time to do the perfect marketing video for it.
BD: Oh my gosh. I heavily suggest that you do that.
NH: Second question, gif or gif?
BD: I do say gif but I recognize that may be wrong because the founder says gif I guess its gif but I can't do it.
NH: I can't stop myself, I can't stop myself. Its gif.
DY: Okay question three, Apple or Google?
PP: That's a tough one, I'm partial to Google, I will admit.
BD: Yeah open platforms for the win, that's Google.
NH: Favorite emoji?
BD: Dancing Pikachu, I don't think that's standard on other work spaces, but we've got a little Pikachu that dances side to side, and I feel like that is my spirit animal.
NH: You're very quick to answer that one, Bear. Have you been asked this before?
DY: That was remarkably fast.
BD: It's a common ice breaker.
PP: My favorite emoji is a custom emoji that someone built, which is a face that's smiling with giant eyes and little hands, it's difficult to describe but I feel like its-
BD: You do use that one a lot.
PP: It really represents me.
DY: Okay, final question, final question. Developer relations, evangelism, or advocacy?
PP: They are all different things. I guess my answer, in short, semantics.
BD: Yeah, I mean it's the lightning round, but I would say that I am in fully in line with Phil Leggetter's Devrel-o-meter – if you just Google Devrel-o-meter, you can see what I mean and that pretty neatly sums up what I think.
DY: Awesome. Okay cool, hey thank you very much, that was awesome. And if people want to know a little bit more about your platform and how to build to your API, where should they go?
DY: Easy and for Xero developer.xero.com. We are on the social stuff, the Twitters, the Instas, see us on the Gram or whatever the young people are saying these days. Buy yeah thank you very much for joining us, this has been awesome and see everybody next time. Nick, you want to have a sign off there?
NH: I just want to say thanks guys for joining us, it’s been really great to have two perspectives both from the developer advocacy and developer marketing, so really appreciate it and we'll see you on Slack.
BD: Yeah thanks so much for having us.