All The Rod & Gary show episodes
Hosted by Rod Drury and Gary Turner
Your watch is your phone, your phone is your camera, your TV is your computer. Is this the death of the gadget?
Join Rod and Gary as they talk about how technology works – or doesn’t – in a domestic ecosystem.
Hosts: Rod Drury & Gary Turner
Gary Turner: Hi, Rod. How are you doing?
Rod Drury: I'm well, very well. Only one more trip and I'm done for the year. Very exciting.
Gary Turner: Yeah, I've got another couple days and I'm wrapped up. Listen, I have a confession to make. I know we've been doing this for a couple of episodes now, this is episode three, and I really enjoy it and I think we should keep it going but I have to say I have been seeing other podcasters in the last week. You'll always be special to me. I was on the FinTech Insider's podcast this week up in London which was kind of interesting.
Rod Drury: I'm sure you probably don't get many people listening to that unless it's a main event.
Gary Turner: Of course it is, of course it is. It was interesting, FinTech to date has been generally about kind of financial services and consumer markets, and so it's cool to see the small business arena factoring into that one. Obviously, nowhere near as interesting as what we talk about so don't feel threatened.
Rod Drury: No, that's good. It's interesting how quick the FinTech stuff is mainstreaming. Right now we've just been working with Kiwibank in New Zealand. They're doing a FinTech accelerator so we had a bunch of applications to come into our three-month programme and we're going to help a bunch of these FinTech startups get going. We've had people working with a bunch of startups, helping them with a bit of strategy, going through judging process, so yeah, it's really starting to take off. Exciting things that we're seeing quite a lot that are leveraging the massive base we have and the relationship we have with banks globally, so that really exciting.
Gary Turner: It is. I don't know if you've caught up with it yet but I have binge-watched the TV show that's all the rage called Westworld, I don't know if you've seen that.
Rod Drury: No, no. Everyone tells me I should. I've been watching YouTube shows lately. I haven't had time but I think about another week of work and that'll be my first one I get into.
Gary Turner: Westworld, I don't want to spoil it, is sci-fi features the concepts of AI and some of the ethical dilemmas around how we all deal with intelligent beings that are artificial in the future. It's got really high production quality. JJ Abrams is the executive producer, Jonathon Nolan. It's got a really good pedigree of either big TV success and their history. Obviously, JJ Abrams was Lost, a very long time ago. No, he wasn't personally lost but he did Lost and has now done obviously Star Wars and Star Trek. It's got that kind of big budget feel to it. It is on the topic of the day which is AI and everything you read is about AI, and really captures the imagination. Anthony Hopkins, Ed Harris, really good cast.
It's ten episodes, it's just finished so you'll be able to get it streamed somewhere. The incredible thing about the world of TV, and TV as this kind of community medium now, is there's something like 25 podcasts dedicated to it. People just dissecting it every week in all the podcasts times 25 on Westworld. It's incredible. Like entertainment is now this thing you watch. Wherever you are, whenever you want, on whatever device you want and then you can have crowd-sourced director's commentary. I recommend it, it's really cool. Really cool.
Rod Drury: Fantastic. I went back and I watched Transcendence, the Johnny Depp film because we've been talking about AI and all that. I think it's one of those films that explores if it goes in the wrong direction. It was interesting going back and seeing all of that. Just that theory of what happens if you do have a brain that's inside the machine. That's worth going and having a watch as well.
Gary Turner: Yeah, I saw that a few months ago, it's pretty cool. Speaking of TV, so interesting thing that just occurred to me the other day. We had our kitchen remodelled five years ago, six years ago I think it was. I had this brainwave instead of getting a TV to mount on the wall in the kitchen for news and stuff, I got an iMac and so I felt particularly proud of the idea and that it would be a TV and you could plug in a little USB tuner so that you could watch TV on it in window or full screen and record and rewind and all the kind of things you do on TVs. It was also PC, obviously, so you could do web browsing and Skype calls and things.
That was five or six years ago. It progressively started developing issues with the screen switching on and off intermittently and getting slower and slower and slower. It finally died on us and I didn't buy another iMac, I bought a TV. I just bought a pretty standard Samsung HDTV. It had a whole lot of apps on it so like Netflix and all the kind of TV streaming stuff is already in there and with Spotify. All the things you'd want to do on a TV. Obviously, it doesn't have a web browser on it. It probably does have a web browser but it's probably not any good.
Thought nothing of getting rid of the computer from the kitchen and replacing it with just the TV. Then I think about a day later my wife sent me a text saying, "oh there's been an article in the news about another virus attack, and should we get our equipment up to date?" I actually thought, apart from me because I'm a huge nerd and I have a Mac in my home study, the Mac I have in my home study is the last PC in our household. We don't have one in the kitchen. My daughter is almost 100% on an iPad. I spend most of my time, my wife spends most of our time on our phones as our primary communications medium. Five years later, if you did an inventory on houses, I just wonder how prevalent the PCs are. I mean you have them for work and things, but we've pretty much almost eradicated them.
So I said to my wife, "well we don't have any PCs that would need antivirus". It was just a weird realisation that we've actually changed the way we use technology quite considerably. Are you guys still using MACs on a day-to-day basis or are you transitioning more to tablet and stuff?
Rod Drury: Yeah, I've just changed to the new MacBook with the touch bar and touch ID, which I absolutely like, but I'm just building a new office at home at the moment, I've got three or four months, so I've been watching what I've been doing. So what I've been using up until now was the 12" MacBook and then I brought a 5K iMac. With everything being in the cloud, you can move between two computers quite nicely. What I was doing before that, I had the one laptop and I'd plug it into my 27" monitor, but I did notice today that they've just announced at the Apple show, they talked about Apple getting out of cinema display business and they had a 27" 5K LG screen. I just saw today, they're now doing a 32" screen. But the problem is, it looks like they're not going to do the Mac Pro, the little trashcan that you've got. So I don't know what you plug that into because I don't really want to plug my laptop into all of those things as well.
Everything's changing and, like we've spoken about this before, there isn't a clean product line or a clean way to go and I hope that does resolve itself over the next two months because I'm not actually sure what I'm going to do in my home office right now.
Gary Turner: Yeah, it is. I've got my Mac Pro just because I'm a nerd and like to think I need a PC but I hardly use it for what it's designed for. Actually, I'm increasingly using my iPad Pro, so if I'm flying around the country, taking my Mac with me. I'll live on my iPad Pro. It's just amazing that 10, 15 years ago, our household would have been full of PCs. No smartphones, no tablets, no smart TVs. Now it's gone completely polar opposite and there's like one last stand hold out PC device in our house. Everything's either a Smart TV, smartphone, or tablet. It was like 'oh we don't have to worry about viruses'. It's weird.
Rod Drury: Until your TV starts getting viruses. Actually, speaking about TVs, because I have to pick some new TVs, I've always had Samsung TVs because I sort of knew how they worked and I just assumed I was going to get those. So I popped down to the local store to see what the ... I don't like buying them brand new, I like to buy the one that's six months old because it's usually about half the price and the same size. But I tried the Sony TVs and what was interesting about them is they've obviously done deal with Google, so a whole lot of Google services and first-class Google apps all on the Sony TVs, and they use Google now for search. I'm actually flipping from Samsung to Sony which is really interesting.
Gary Turner: Yeah. I think it was a Samsung I bought and all the streaming apps are good enough. You can't really do it for much else, although, I did discover it has Spotify. You can activate it from your Spotify app on your phone, which is pretty cool. Frankly, the speakers on a TV aren't really up for playing music, but it's just interesting the nodes are beginning to connect together. It probably needs another year or two for that then to mature into a consistent platform experience, whether it's Sony or Samsung or whatever.
Rod Drury: My favourite thing happened this week and that was that now from Spotify, you can point your playlists directly to your Sonos speakers. Before, there was a ... Yeah you could connect your Sonos to Spotify but you had to go and find everything and add them to the queue and ran sort of the wrong way. Now, just watch on your phone, you can just drive that straight to any of your Sonos speakers and that if one of those key experiments that really just changes everything. I've always loved Sonos, but now it's so easy. Spotify and Sonos working together is incredibly cool. So if you haven't got that working, you should definitely do it. For anyone that doesn't have a home speaker system yet, I've just been evangelising to everyone, buy Sonos. It's just so good.
Gary Turner: Yeah, well you know what I did last night? I cancelled my Apple music family account and reactivated my Spotify for that reason. Partly because I'm not loving the iOS music client. It's really hard to find things and iOS 10 just kind of screwed up, I think, but that was the final clench because we have Sonos speakers. I literally did that last night. It's amazing, you can just pick whatever part of the house you want to stream it to and it'll do it straight from the Spotify app, which is, again, changing.
The only thing that makes us slightly disappointed is that, I suspect ... Well not disappointed, but ... I suspect that Sonos are doing a deal with Amazon where they'll embed the Alexa echo client in the speaker because you're going to have this cluster of speakers. You're going to have Google home or Alexa and your Spotify speaker. It actually needs to be one speaker. It all needs to be on a single device and I think I read that Sonos were talking to Amazon. I wouldn't be surprised if in 2017 we see a bunch of Sonos speakers that are also Amazon Alexa devices. Interesting.
Rod Drury: Yeah. That's exactly why I haven't jumped into those things yet. I've tried them and they're interesting but I don't want to play the music on that speaker because I've already got Sonos all around the house. So once they do that, that'll be pretty interesting.
Hey, so I've seen you in the paper this week. What have you been doing? You were writing strongly-worded letters to the Times.
Gary Turner: Yeah, angry from Milton Keynes. A gentleman by the name of Mark Carney, who's the governor of the bank of England ... The bank of England is actually not a regular commercial bank in the sense that they're actually, they set rates of interest and they're actually more of a political function rather than an RBS or Barclays or something like that. So Mark Carney actually has a really important job in kind of guiding and forecasting where the economy is going and setting interest rates and things like that. He gave a speech last week, I think it was up in Liverpool, and I don't think it was his quotation, but he was citing another quotation that he agreed with which was about the march of technology.
I'll paraphrase it to keep it short, but in essence he was saying that we're about to enter into this whole wave of transformation and automation in the next 10, 15 years, which everybody agrees with. He said that, actually, if we look at the way industrial revolutions play out, generally, the new revolution destroys jobs before it creates new ones. So, that transition is not quite a smooth hand-off. It's not just incremental. The application was that this march of technology will kind of destroy communities' industries, jobs, livelihoods, long before new alternative employment emerges.
Which, I think if you play that back over the previous industrial revolutions we've seen - I think presumably we're in the fourth industrial revolution although that might be marketing bullshit, but I think it is - I think it really misses the point. Clearly, there's automation. Take something, automate it, and you don't need a human to do it anymore. Clearly there's a displacement effect there. One of my old friends who you cited your XeroCon talk back in Brisbane earlier this year as Doc Searls. I've known Doc for about, must be, 15 years and I got to know Doc through a book he co-authored back in 1999 called The Cluetrain Manifesto. He was a co-author, Christopher Locke, Doc Searls, Rick Levine, and David Weinberger. Doc is just really smart. U.S.-based marketing, he's been in tech marketing his entire career, just understands technology and marketing and is this really highly, highly renowned figure over there.
He tweeted, not in relation to Mark Carney, but he tweeted about the same time as observing all of the stories about automation displacing jobs and robots taking our jobs. None of them seem to refer to the fact that we have an amazing capacity for ingenuity as humans. Nobody's talking about 'well actually, we're not just going to sit by and watch robots come and automation come and destroy jobs, we're going to create this new industry, we have to think forward, not defensively' and so I clearly didn't agree with Mark Carney's perspective. I think there's a couple of articles online and we wrote a blog about it. It's been interesting just seeing how that's played out.
Rod Drury: Yeah. What we're seeing with the numbers, the firms that I'm moving, and the space that we're in, the accounting firms that are embracing automation are actually making more money. They're getting more time back. They're the ones that are creating jobs, they're getting new clients into their business, and they're helping their clients create jobs as well. So I think we're seeing the evidence and it's pretty clear. It's interesting. What we think we need to do is to make sure that we're creating playbooks so there is new opportunities to fill a void where we can get rid of some of the work that computers do better.
Gary Turner: Yeah. Clearly, there's a lot of work to do and we have to build some of that stuff, whatever industry it is, I think there's a common realisation that people are getting that ‘I want to be the last analogue X in a digital industry', 'I want to be the last analogue accountant in a digital accounting universe', and that's not going to happen tomorrow, but there's a progression that's happening. I think, usually, what happens ... This is a great quote from, I think it was, Bill Gates says that "we hugely overestimate the extent of change in the immediate term" and so we think everything's going to change in the next two years but we underestimate change in the longer term.
Actually, we think 'it's all going to change tomorrow' and it doesn't, usually, but actually, it changes more profoundly in ten years than we realise. It's not all going to disappear tomorrow, but I think come 2027, 26, 27 - my goodness, can't believe that's ten years away - it'll be different.
But yes, I took a bit of an issue with what Mark Carney had said. He didn't reply but you never know what he may do.
Rod Drury: That's fun. I spoke to Doc Searls, must be six or eight weeks ago now, and it was just so exciting just to compare notes. I felt that we were kindred spirits and I know that you caught up with him recently. Can you give us an explanation of what that vendor relationship management concept does? It's really interesting and I haven't fully got my head around it, so if you can explain it to me, I'd really appreciate it.
Gary Turner: I'll try. Maybe in a future episode, we can get Doc on and he can talk about it. So The Cluetrain Manifesto, really quickly, written in 1999, was based upon this web-page, started off being web-page of 95 theses. Actually, many of the themes in The Cluetrain Manifesto book foretold of this world of social connectedness that we're all in now, and consumer power, and dis-aggregation of old market models and things like that, and the power of voice, and the power of markets that connect together as opposed to the old world of marketing and the old world of PR and the way things used to be before the internet came along. I read it in 2000 and it completely made me take a right turn in technology and had a huge impact on the way I saw how technology pans out.
Doc then wrote a book called The Intention Economy and then got into a project at Berkman faculty at Harvard where he became a fellow and was there for a couple of years and traded this project called VRM which stands for Vendor Relationship Management, which is kind of like the yen to the yang of CRM. Companies and organisations spend millions of dollars on computer systems and software to manage customer relationships from a service perspective, but also from optimising like 'how much can we get our customers to spend with us' in marketing and managing those relationships.
So businesses and organisations are incredibly well-equipped to manage their audience or their customer, their markets through software such as CRM, but we as consumers have nothing. Consider 20, 40 years ago as an individual citizen, you might have 10, 15, 20 relationships with people you spend money with. The electricity company, the telephone company, your doctor, dentist, car company. People that you are cutting checks to to pay for things and you could manage it all in a little black notebook you kept in your pocket and life was simple. They didn't have tools to manage you and there was only 10 or 15 of them and life was simple.
Today, and Doc estimates, we could potentially have hundreds of these vendors that we deal with, like Amazon, Apple, all that kind of tech stuff we buy, all the things we subscribe to. If you're on a paywall, subscribe to the Times or the Guardian, or the New York Times, you begin to add up all of those individual subscription relationships or recurring vendor relationships, it's hundreds now and it's unmanageable. When you leave one, what are they doing with your data? You exist in hundreds of CRM systems as an entity.
So Rod Drury, Gary Turner, we are contact records, behaviour records in potentially hundreds of CRM systems. Yet, we maybe have ... You might be using some kind of financial management software for your personal stuff, but really, it's your online bank account. Who's taking money out of my account this month? You know what I mean? So the whole concept is should there be this essence of giving the consumer some power back and having a VRM experience. So Doc has been working on that for the last ten years and it's a fascinating area and we're beginning to see some innovation coming through.
Actually, I caught up with him. He was in our London office last week. He was over in town because he's actually doing a lot of work on this in London. He's even saying that he's been working on this in the U.S. for the last 10, 12 years but he thinks the centre of gravity for that whole ... It's not quite feedback that makes it sound adversarial, but it's equipping consumers with the tools to manage the vendors. He thinks the centre of gravity for that is coming back to the U.K. It's just a fascinating area and maybe if we can find the time to grab him, it'd be great to get him on a future episode and just explore some of the stuff that he's seen. He's meeting some really cool people some really amazing things. It could be a really interesting area in the next few years to pop, I think.
Rod Drury: As we sort of move away from doing the back office stuff, thinking about the front office services and how we link into the work that we're doing, that's really interesting because we have a volume of data. There may be some interesting ways or standards that we can look at to give our customers, at least, more visibility of where their data is, give them a bit more control. It's going to be something we're following closely.
Gary Turner: Yeah, I'll try and catch up with Doc the next time he's over and maybe convince him to come on a future episode.
Completely changing gear, one of the final things I wanted to talk about was, I've just started swimming so long story short, I broke my foot. I slipped on a step in July, broke my foot, and was in a plastic cast for months. Couldn't walk, lots and lots of things. I'm in this physical rehab thing and I've started swimming as much as I can lately, so the idea of thrashing up and down a swimming pool is pretty good for the ankle and for the foot to recover. I'm, of course, using my Apple watch to track that and it's actually pretty cool. I remember previous times when I'd be swimming and you wanted to record the workout and you're trying to estimate how far had you swum and how much effort did you put into. Did you swim really fast, did you swim kind of moderately fast, was it a paddle? And it would try and work out how many calories you'd burned and everything else.
But the Apple watch does all of that stuff for you because it's monitoring your heart rate and it knows how fast you're going and it can work out when you're doing a length. I thought it's just such a beautiful experience where I'm using the watch through day-to-day. I'm not using it intensively day-to-day. I've regulated the way that I use it. I'm not in it every five minutes, but it'll pop up with specific things that I want to be notified about, but more are in health and fitness as I'm starting to get back into rehab and get back to my previous athletic self, obviously.
I just thought that, previously, if you wanted to go and track your swimming, you'd have to buy some kind of Garmin or other dedicated swimming watch and you'd have to change that and manage battery life and everything else. That coincided, and I was really impressed with it, and that coincided with the news that Pebble had just been acquired by Fitbit which I was disappointed because I had signed up and I'd been in their latest crowd funder to get the new Pebble 2 watch just to see what it was like and it was about to be delivered in December. I was looking forward to working out whether I was going to stick with the Apple watch or the Pebble watch but Pebble have decided that for me and have cancelled that project and probably have already refunded me. Maybe I need some vendor relationship management software to track that. So Fitbit bought Pebble for 14 million, which is kind of disappointing and obviously plan to soak up Pebble into that.
I also did a crowd funder for another piece of hardware called a popSLATE. It's an iPhone case that's a battery, but the back of it is one of these Amazon Kindle e-ink things. So you can read books, you can look at the news, so it's like double-sided, turns your iPhone into this kind of two-screen device. I thought, "that's a really cool thing". So I ordered that in must be June or July, and it was supposed to be delivered by October/November and every email from the guys at popSLATE, who are working really hard, is like 'another hardware manufacturing glitch' or 'we failed this radio regulation test' or whatever. It's now going to be maybe March or April. They're not going to refund you your money. Maybe they'll get something out. It's been this really long and painful journey and the fact that Pebble have effectively died, popSLATE are really struggling. Hardware's a really hard thing to do in this day and age if you're small and don't have a lot of money.
But if you're Apple and you have an install-base of however many million iPhones, then you can see Apple Watch just becomes the centre of gravity of smart watches because there's such an install-base. Apple have all the resources to spend on ironing out all those glitches that the little crowd funder guys or even Fitbit can't. If you look at all of the gadgets, so you look at ... So Fitbit themselves are struggling, Pebble ran out of cash, these guys I'm trying to buy this case from are really struggling, but then GoPro's results, they're not great in the last while. What's happened to NeST? Nintendo, where are they going in terms of mobile gaming and that's something that they classically owned and really struggling.
Everything's being sucked into the single-device experience. This guy called Farhad Manjoo who wrote an article last week in the New York Times, saying this is basically the gadget apocalypse now. You used to have 10 gadgets for discrete things. Now, basically, it's a smartphone. If you're in a gadget category, you're probably screwed. It's the end of the gadget, you just have one device that has everything. The camera in the iPhone 7 is just incredible. All those categories just being rolled up into one area. I'm kind of sad about that, because where's the innovation going to come from?
Did you move to the updated Apple Watch or are you still resisting?
Rod Drury: Yeah, no, I lasted four days with my first watch and I was so excited to get it but then my wife just saw me looking at my wrist every three or four seconds. She got really pissed off, so I had to get rid of it, but I do swim a lot. I swim every day I'm home. I was swimming this morning and I do change from my normal watch to my Garmin watch. So I'm kind of torn because I'd love a really good swimming watch that you could see what's going on but I like my standard watch. Super exciting, now, I do have, finally just like you, air pods finally are available. Maybe even by the time this comes out we should have them. They're due early next week. It was interesting, I think I will sit out this generation of watch because there was speculation they would actually have the mobile phone connexion in there and if you could get to a point with air pods and the watch becomes the phone, then that becomes really interesting.
But I think it's interesting how the iPhone 7 wasn't that different but yet it's the best iPhone I've ever had. It seems like the volume, you can actually hear it loudly without putting speakers on, without having to put headsets on, is just really good and it's just so fast. Definitely the best iPhone I've ever had and the camera is absolutely stunning. It's interesting because people have been really anti the new MacBook with its lack of ports and the iPhone 7, I'm always finding I've got the wrong headphones with me. If I had the air pods out, then everything would have been great. So what I'm hoping is, once the air pods arrive next week, everything is just going to feel really good. Then imagine that, imagine your watch becomes your phone. That's going to be very exciting.
Gary Turner: Yeah, I ordered mine. I saw they were on sale because I was kind of disappointed because they've taken so long to come out, but now I'm actually grabbing a pair and they're being delivered soon but I think they're on six weeks back-order in the U.K. so they showed up pretty quickly.
Let's get a better perspective. It's better headphones. Wireless headphones are not a new concept, but I think, often you see these what look like, on a surface level, superficial changes. Often by the time you become habituated to using them, actually it profoundly changes your behaviour, just by disconnecting a cable, doesn't mean you don't have to spend 30 seconds de-tangling every time you want to put your headphones on. It just means that you might use your headphones more often and then all of a sudden you then start doing other things more often, and so I think the consequences of moving to wireless headphones could be interesting to play out. Most of the reviews I've seen of them, people are raving about them and saying that they're one of the best products Apple has ever built which will be interesting to see. So I can't wait to see what they're like and maybe we can do a report.
Rod Drury: The thing that I'm really looking forward to them is that, my understand is, they bind to multiple devices at the same time. I'm often doing conference calls on my Mac or I'm on my laptop or I'm talking on the phone and I'm listening to podcasts, I'm listening to things quietly, so it's that seamless having one set of headphones which is seamlessly connected as you're working.
We're probably coming up to time, one thing I just really wanted to finish off on was the Amazon Reinvent conference. I know we all like watching the big key notes and there's been some interesting key notes throughout the year. We saw the Apple key notes butcher the old standard. I always love watching the Elon Musk ones, we saw the Google key notes, the last two have been really interesting talking about machine learning and those types of things. The most entertaining, probably, this year has been the Microsoft one when they showed their new big screen that has touch and has that cool wheel.
But I was absolutely blown away, completely blown away, by two days of Amazon key notes. The breadth of stuff that those guys are doing was absolutely mind-blowing. I couldn't even ... It's hard to imagine how they could have shipping so much software in the last year and how it completely changes after an application provider that you just have almost infinite infrastructure. We've always said 'everyone has to re-platform' but when you see the way that they're thinking about computing and all these resources that you can glue together, some of the big data stuff and server-less computing, I just think we're heading into this golden age of business software. For me, if I look at all the key notes this year, I just think it just stood out absolutely head and shoulders above everyone else just by the sheer volume of work that they're doing.
One thing I heard afterwards, from some venture capitalists, which blew me away and this really gave me a sense of scale, was the VCs were concerned that ... Normally in the technology industry, there's a few big players and they will invest in companies that eventually get acquired. Amazon is doing so much of this themselves and becoming such a powerhouse in computing, that they were concerned that the venture capital industry itself would be disrupted because there's wouldn't be enough deals because they weren't doing many acquisitions. They were buying companies very, very early and really buying talent and then just letting them go and build stuff on top of their platform which is a perspective I just hadn't heard before. But, again, just reinforced the massive scale that Amazon's operating on.
Gary Turner: I think what's incredible is clearly the work from pretty big shops in the last couple of weeks that will give Google and Apple and Microsoft a lot to think about. Are they going to catch up with that stuff? I think that the other dynamic that could play out from that is that what they're doing is they're fertilising a whole new generation of start-ups as well. They're eliminating a lot of that heavy grind, in terms of building apps and building new products, because you'll inherit a lot of that stuff in the stack on AWS. So VCs probably shouldn't feel too bad about the fact that Amazon aren't doing that traditional rule-up but they're actually seating ... There could be an explosion in new highly capable apps and services off the back of this because Amazon have just cut out a first year or two of building your stack because you just built on AWS and asked to bring to market a really sophisticated product much more readily. So the VCs shouldn't be too disappointed, I don't think.
Rod Drury: So I think we're probably done for this year and thanks for everything that you have done this year. We've had a huge 12 months. It's been a hard 12 months for us, but when you look back at all of the things that we've achieved, it's just absolutely crazy. So make sure you have a good break and hopefully people are listing as they take their week or two off after Christmas. Thanks everyone for your support.
Gary Turner: Yeah, you have a good break as well, Rod. I'll speak to you in 2017.
Rod Drury: Thank you.
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